I’ve seen a lot of posts recently extolling the virtues of grit. Usually, they are associated with Angela Duckworth’s popular book. I get why the philosophy appeals to people. It is a very fair way to look at the world, because we aren’t all smart, beautiful, fast, strong, artistic or charismatic. Some of us are just average, or less, in most areas. Saying grit is the important thing is a great equalizer. Because your DNA will determine if you are NBA material, and if you are not there is nothing in the world that can get you a starting spot on the New York Knicks. But anyone can work hard, can hang in there, and if grit is linked to success, then there is hope for almost everyone.
I do not know the particulars of Ms. Duckworth’s research and I’m not about to confront it from a psychological standpoint. It may well be grit has a lot of value in a lot of situations. But I do have my own personal three decades plus career in the corporate world and I can tell you what my experience is regarding grit.
I’d rank grit very low in terms of aiding success in the business world. I have worked with a lot of extremely successful people and I, not so humbly, include myself in those ranks as well. And I have never seen a single person rise above a mediocre middle management job by relying on hard work and perseverance. The people that rose into the middle and upper six figure compensation ranks, and higher, did indeed work hard. But they were never motivated by grit. They were motivated by ambition. They were motivated by goals. They were motivated by power. They were motivated by fame. They were motivated by money. They were motivated by a successful track record of beating out their rivals. There was zero of the idea that you just work hard regardless of results and it will be OK. Life is far too short to waste it that way, in the minds of the fast movers.
I can think of one of my classmates who also came to work at the same company I did just a few months after our graduation from college. We had similar grade points, the same chemical engineering major but we were very different people. Glenn was full of grit. He was a great athlete, ruggedly handsome with a deep booming voice and an infectious smile. I was smaller, a good tennis player and had a degree of charm. But there were stark differences. Glenn studied like a maniac in college, I barely studied at all. He attended every class, I skipped every class I could get away with, although you could not skip classes in your major, so I went to all of those. But when we got to our jobs at the chemical complex, I saw what happens when grit takes talent on. Glenn out worked me by ten hours a week but I outproduced him by 100%. I literally could finish a project in less than half the time and produce much better results. That happened because I knew I was gifted and I viewed it as a fun game I could win. Glenn viewed it as a hard and deep ditch to dig. When I retired early, Glenn was still working in a middle management job, long hours, decent pay but not what I made. He was and is a great guy and we remain friends, but he relied on grit and I relied on gamifying work and finding ways to make it feel like fun. Fun wins! Grit is basically the opposite of fun, it loses.
Later in my career the big boss called me and my chief frenemy and rival, Roger, into his office to tell us something very unusual. He said the family that owned our company, and many other companies, had decided that one of us would run the company and the other would take a staff position in the corporate office in another state. Both were great promotions but both of us wanted to run our company site as our next job. We had a year of time to prove who was the better choice. Well, that played directly into my wheelhouse. I loved competition and had more than my share of confidence. The other guy was close to equally talented but not nearly as sure of himself, and I think Roger approached things with some fear. In any event there is no question he was grittier than me, but the race was never close. He went to the corporate job and had a great career but he never got that job he wanted, the job I got. Again, I was far out gritted by him, but I had an edge in people skills, trustworthiness and problem solving. And I was clearly having fun at work. When the decision makers are looking to put someone in charge of the business, they aren’t looking for someone who will put their nose to the grindstone, they want someone who can make it rain. Grit is all grindstone and no rain.
I have often wondered why the world works this way. You would think hard work would win more than it does. I think maybe I know. Grit, perseverance and endurance are all about fighting through who you are and keeping going anyway. There are physical and mental health limits to how long you can do that. I ran 15 marathons and 23,000 miles as an experiment in trying to develop some grit. Decades later I remain grit free. I still hate running but the experiment continues. Mastery and genius on the other hand are fun, you get caught up in a sort of ecstasy when you are in the flow, in that deep work zone. That activity requires zero grit, its like a drug and you don’t even want to stop to eat lunch or go home. Its intoxicating. I get that same thrill playing tennis, fishing and blogging now. Playing to the pleasure centers of your brain absolutely destroys what you can get done by gutting something out. And to me that’s what my CEO did, what the best people I worked with did and what my billionaire owner did. They enjoyed their jobs, but they wouldn’t have lasted a week slogging it out in something that did not motivate them. They were manic about work, in a good way.
Do not get me wrong, grit is not a bad thing. Its very handy when you are required to do something that is not fun in the least, as we all are called upon to do. But nobody is going to excel in life by doing things they hate. Doing distasteful work longer and better than others is not the path to anywhere you want to go. The secret is to be able to endure icky stuff just long enough to find a way to avoid it, and to find a path where you do not need so much grit. A path where you can be world class and be rewarded for it.
I suspect a lot of you will not agree with this, so feel free to let me have it. It is a sacred cow after all. My opinion is solely based on my experience and absolutely zero research. Do you think grit is overrated or is it a go to prerequisite for success?
Have you seen anyone achieve great things in their career or financial lives purely through grit?
As usual, if you can’t find the comments box then just click on the title of this post up at the top. Comments should appear.
Great piece Steve, though I think every job has a certain amount of grunt work that does require, for lack of a better word ‘grit’.
My first corporate boss when I was in my early 20s, when I complained about some of the work I was assigned said that, everyone had grunt work to do, including her and that I should try and find that little piece of work that gave me joy and grow that, every day and in every role.
That’s always been my approach to work, grow the pieces that bring joy, grit away at stuff that needs gritting..
That’s true Domink, every job requires some grit or motivation, but I don’t think grit is enough. My gritty friends didn’t have bad careers, they were six figure earners and all respected. I am not sure they had enough fun though.
Wow. Hubris!
You’re right, I’m not sure I agree with you 100%, but I agree with you more than 50%. And you’ve given us something to think about. Thank you for writing this – the PF blogosphere needs more straight talk of this type and less of the “we’re all wonderful and if you just believe that everything will work out wonderfully for you” platitudes that are so pervasive these days.
Thanks Ben! Blogs are a little like Twitter, you only have so many words before nobody will read your post. So I find myself exaggerating to make points with less verbiage. But I’ll stand by the idea that hard work won’t always win, you’ve got to determine where your talent is and work where that is rewarded. Plus I struggle to explain how someone as lazy as me could have been successful if grit is required.
While I agree that grit doesn’t always win, I disagree that it’s not important. It’s important for folks that don’t get the same GREEN LIGHTS as others. Let me try to respectfully explain.
Following your posts, Steve, at least for the last 2-3 years, it doesn’t sound like you got many (if any) RED LIGHTS in your career. It sounds like most every decision you made and executed was rewarded fairly (or better than fair). There are many people who make the same types of decisions who are ignored. Repeatedly. This can even happen at different jobs. The world is not fair; I know that. But you need grit just to survive when the world isn’t fair. You “beat” some of the other people in your career, because you were super smart (and I’m sure it was combined with fantastic people skills, speaking ability, etc.)
I don’t doubt that you were perfectly gifted and suited for the career and life you’ve had. I’m just not sure if you can fully appreciate grit when it doesn’t sound like you experienced a lot of RED LIGHTS in your life (at least based on your blog posts). Your parents were good with money, you excelled in school without studying, it sounds like you married exceptionally well and you had three kids that have excelled in life. You made the best with what you had and didn’t squander it for sure, and I can appreciate that. But don’t you think you would have need much more grit and appreciated grit more had you not married well or one of your kids became a problem child. And if you have some “grit” stories you’ve been holding on to, I’d love to hear them.
I’ll admit, I’m a little sensitive on the subject of grit. I’ve survived and “made it” based on grit. It certainly wasn’t on my raw talent or smarts alone. I hope you understand I mean you no offense, and I hope all of this has come out respectfully. I’m just trying to give an honest reply from the other side of things, and I value your take on it.
Thanks Hobo, I think I would be a way better person if I had more grit building episodes in my life, like you. And you are right, I was very lucky to land in something that fit me. I think there are millions of people who struggle in life because they don’t fit the careers they are in, some of whom could have been rock stars in another job or self employed role. I also think talent plus grit will always beat talent alone. But I also think talent alone usually beats grit alone. Most people have some of both, talent and grit, I’m kind of weird in that I had enough talent to thrive without much grit. I’m not proud I’m basically so lazy, but I do accept it and have always found work arounds to offset it.
>>I also think talent plus grit will always beat talent alone. But I also think talent alone usually beats grit alone.
I agree with both of those statements. And thank you for receiving my previous reply in the spirit in which it was intended.
Thanks Hobo, I tried to write it in a way that didn’t devalue hard work and perseverance. I was trying to say that the real win win is to apply grit to an area of genius or true talent. But it didn’t come out as well as I wanted. I never scoffed at my harder working peers, I admired their persistence but I also felt, and told some of them, that they would be better served to adjust into a career that they didn’t have to fight so hard to do. To me the real tragedy of modern life is that so many people are not suited to their jobs, or that modern jobs aren’t suited to people. I found my niche and loved it, I wish everyone could, but what I don’t know is whether I just got supremely lucky or if there is a job to love out there for everybody. In the FI and FIRE community it seems the consensus opinion is there just aren’t very many jobs, not close to enough to go around, for most people to have a happy career.
I would say grit is necessary, but insufficient.
At times, grinding it out is a must. Necessary. Other times, it takes the art of making rain. That intangible sense of what’s important and the best way to get it done. That “sense” is the silk that smooths the grit.
My favorite quote from the post? “Grit is all grindstone and no rain.”. To be truly successful, you need both.
Thanks Fritz, I agree, I had to hang in there a few times. But I think I’m living proof that you don’t have to have much grit. And I think that you can offset a grit deficit with talent more easily than you can offset a lack of talent with grit. I think almost everyone has talent, but not everyone figures out how to monetize it.
I think that there are certain periods in life in which you do just have to grit things out. BUT, it doesn’t sustain long-term.
I would constantly be preaching to my employees that it is not about who stays in the office the longest, but who actually gets the right stuff done at the right time.
I had a VP who thought that hard work was solely based on the hours put in. “My guys are putting in the hours” — “They are working so hard, bla bla” — But what are they actually working on? They aren’t achieving their goals. They are working hard for hards sake.
There is a time and place, certain there are days your best self is not present and you have to grit through it. But I’ll take working smarter over harder any day of the week.
>>But I’ll take working smarter over harder any day of the week.
The definition of grit is NOT “working harder”. GRIT is working hard, and as smart as you can, when everything in the world seems to be going against you.
Of course there are some times where the world is “correct” and you shouldn’t be trying to push through, but that’s a different discussion.
And it’s also not pushing through for a few hours, or for a few days, or even a few weeks. Grit is pushing through, working towards something for many weeks and usually years to accomplish something (or even just to survive) when the world is pushing against you.
Well said AR, I had some 100 hour weeks, even one 35 hour continuous work day(s). But they were rare. But what really gets you promoted is making the company money, even if it just took 30 minutes to think it up.
Can you provide some examples of how a support function can make the company money? For instance, I’m in house counsel and I’m not sure how our legal dept can make $$ for the business.
Patty, it is more difficult to do if you are in a support function like HR or legal or environmental but it is not impossible. Ironically my two single biggest wins for my company, one over 70 million and one over 30 million were basically on legal issues we either won in court or tax benefits we were able to claim that had been overlooked, and I’m not a lawyer. So if you can highlight litigation that came out in your company’s favor in which you had an integral role that’s one way. Another is to reverse engineer why the company has a legal department. By definition your being there is fulfilling that need for the company and you might be able to estimate what the costs would be that your presence is reducing or eliminating. If you are in a compliance role you could highlight the money saved in fines or diminished brand value that didn’t happen because of you. Another way is if your company participates in some type of global benchmarking. Any areas that involve you where your company is top quartile are due in part to your performance.
I think the issue is, not everybody has your talent and skills. I certainly don’t, which is why I failed in corporate America.
But I absolutely believe grid is essential for building Your OWN business or endeavor.
Politics and all that stuff is less important. So perhaps one challenge for you is to try to grow your website into a top 1% site like you did your career.
You can see whether grit matters or not. It would be a great test case!
Sam
That’s a great point Sam, and I agree totally that being self employed requires tons of grit. I’ve been self employed consulting for five years(very part time) and I’ve come to realize I don’t like the grittiness it requires, so I’m switching to more volunteering and have shut it down (unless a friend in a bind really needs help, I’d still do that). I think growing my web site into something cool and famous, like yours, being as lazy as I am, would again peg out my grit meter. It would be a great test case, except for the part about me being lazy. Blogging is pure fun now. And gritless.
Hey Steve, I think you’re underappreciating your career accomplishments. Did you need courage, resolve, and a strong character to excel in your career? Of course. Can you measure this with the number of hours worked? Nah. Can it overcome all talent deficits? Negative.
Talent without grit doesn’t go far either. Look at all the 5 star college recruits or first round draft picks that went no-where. Then, compare that to Tom Brady or Michael Jordan.
Dap,I sort of agree and sort of disagree at the same time. I did work hard at times, I did deliver a lot more than was asked of me. But I was in a constant positive feedback loop of praise, promotions and pay. So it felt fun because I was winning the corporate game. I wonder if Michael Jordan’s team had never made the NBA playoffs and if the Patriots had never had a winning season if Jordan and Brady would have still been as good? If I hadn’t been rewarded I would have been a bad employee because I wouldn’t have pushed through. But I didn’t have to.
Grit can lead to success, but it’s not the only factor involved. As Duckworth said, “Our potential is one thing. What we do with it is quite another.”
Liquid, yes, and I’m not arguing with her mastery of the subject or her research. I’m just sticking with my own experience, and I am not even sure how objective I am about that.
Interesting perspective. I’m someone who once up to speed in the jobs I’ve had has baseline macro and micro knowledge higher than the majority of my colleagues. That’s allowed for efficiencies that others didn’t, or couldn’t, enjoy. But, I’m also somewhat a gritter and don’t have the gift, as many of my bosses (and, it sounds like) you have that allows for an almost preternatural big-picture understanding and ability to do the work without the effort that it takes others. That’s something I’ve sought for just about forever, but which has always remained elusive, leading me to believe that you either have it or you don’t. So, for me, the combo package of a pretty good baseline knowledge plus the grit, has been critical for moderate success, but I’ve never had, or been considered for, the top position in my groups. Knowing that I have an ability to grit and that stress/fear of failing will cause me to do whatever’s necessary to get the job done, but that I also have a visceral hatred for jobs in which lots of hours—in part for face-time, and in part because there’s just that much (difficult) work—I’ve avoided or left jobs in which too much gritting was necessary. In short, I’ll grit, but only allow for so much.
Fifo, that’s awesome. And believe me, if I had more grit, like you, I could have risen a lot higher in the corporate world. Fortunately, I rose as high as I wanted. But I could have been a lot better with a stronger with ethic. I do think laziness, which caused me to find better quicker and easier ways to get things done was sometimes an asset. Grittier people would sometimes lie into a problem and solve it with brute force, and then do it again the next time. I’d stop, figure out a one time solution and never have to solve that problem again.
I definitely don’t disagree, although I think I agree more with another post that said grit is necessary but not sufficient.
I’ve known plenty of people who have big dreams that they could probably achieve, but they’re not willing to put in any work. They quit or move on to something else when the going gets tough. And shocker, they don’t make it very far in life. Particularly when we’re talking about raising children, I think it’s super important to instill the idea that we do have to work hard, often very hard, to get the things we want. For most people, success or financial independence don’t just fall out of the sky. It’s very dangerous to go through life thinking everyone will get a participation ribbon. Employers don’t want people who will just show up but spend half their day on social media. I haven’t read Grit, but I’m assuming that’s what it is getting at.
On the other hand, I’ve known plenty of people who are incredibly hard workers. Like the ones you described, they put in crazy hours and are pretty successful. But they sometimes just seem to be working hard just to work hard, rather than being strategic about where to focus their energy. And to me, that sounds terrible. It seems like you figured that out pretty well. Making it a game, figuring out what’s important and what isn’t, creating boundaries, learning how to have fun and get in the zone–those things, when combined with some grit, are incredibly powerful.
But yeah, no matter how much grit I might have, I’ll never be Michael Jordan. Never. Grit is definitely not all there is to it.
You are so wise Mrs FCB. I think you probably are correct for most people. But I was writing from my life’s perspective. I was not a great role model for my kids, but they emulated my hard working farm girl wife. They built great study habits and combined her grit with my competitiveness so they turned out fine!
I’m not as wise as I am judgmental :). And I see a lot of people around me who aren’t willing to put in a little work. It also sounds like your kids saw plenty of grit from you too, even if you might not characterize it that way. It’s not like you were drinking beers and watching TV all day while they were at school!
True, I did work hard. But it just didn’t feel like it. I remember taking home technical drawings of the facility and memorizing them so I could draw them out by memory. I doubt anyone else ever did that, but I thought it would give me an edge, which it did.
Interesting, thought-provoking, and controversial piece Steve. Here’s my 2 cents: I think there’s a little confusion about Duckworth’s definition of grit here. Grit is not synonymous with hard work; rather, it represents perseverance and (most importantly) the ability to push through adversity to achieve results. Studying a lot or working long hours doesn’t demonstrate grit. Pursuing a passion project when everyone tells you it’s not going to work is grit in action. Overcoming setbacks, etc… I think the comment above saying that your talent may have compensated for grit is possibly true, though. To my thinking, it is possible to be so talented and successful (and lucky?) as to not need to rely on grit much. I think this has been your experience. Who knows, maybe if you had a lot of setbacks in life you would have shown your grit.
I feel like I’m in a similar position to you, albeit with less overall success. I haven’t faced many major obstacles in my life, and I’ve been pretty successful at every step along the way. It’s probably some combination of good fortune and talent. My wife, on the other hand, exemplifies grit. She came from a broken home, was surrounded by drug addiction and overdoses growing up, was kicked out of her house as a teenager, and had to drop out of college because of student loan issues. It took almost 10 years, but she got back into a community college, worked her way through to graduate school and a six figure salary in the medical field. There’s no way on earth I would have survived or thrived given her circumstances, so what explains her ability to achieve what she’s done? Grit.
Wow, you married a superhero! Good for both of you. I will admit grit confuses me. Does it depend on the motive? It seems to me long and hard work could require grit if you don’t expect it to lead to great success. But if, like me, you recognize there is an almost certain promotion and raise that will come from doing a great job on your projects then its more like a competition, and doesn’t require grit, just frequent reminders of the next goal.
Interesting perspective. I don’t think that grit doesn’t win. I think grit does win. That doesn’t mean that grit ALWAYS wins. I don’t think grit is neither overrated nor a prerequisite for success.
It’s going to work for some people and it’s not going to work for some people. However, it is a way to get there to be successful.
I always took issue with the saying “hard work beats talent if talent doesn’t work hard”. Does that mean if talent does work hard, everyone should just give up because talent that works hard is always going to win?
Grit works for some people but it doesn’t for others. It’s not a one size fits all.
I can’t argue that David. I only spoke from my very narrow experience. I was a unicorn of sorts, I fell into a niche job that was perfect for me. Maybe the only job a super lazy guy could win at. I’m definitely not proud of being low grit. It’s a flaw I admit to having. I totally agree it’s not one size fits all. I also believe gritty people are better than lazy people. And that my success is in a real sense unfair to those who worked harder than me. But mainly I was making the observation that the modern market values results more than core values. You strike me as someone with both talent and grit. That is the golden ticket.
I appreciate the kind words, that made me smile.
I don’t think grinding it out ever wins for long, for many of the reasons that you enumerated. But grinding it out is not what I think of as grit. To me grit is perseverance and determination to keep going until you reach mastery and it becomes fun. And that, as far as I’ve seen, is wildly successful. The determination to do hard things, and figuring out how to do them, even though it feels less than great to begin.
I like that take Caro, I did do a lot of extra work when I was reaching for mastery and that did indeed pay off for me. I was so invested in my goals it never seemed like hard work, but it would have looked like it to an observer.
Brilliant post. I must agree. I worked extremely hard for most of my life (whether you call it grit, effort or perseverance it doesn’t matter).
When I worked in positions that brought more money to the company, I earned a lot more (sales and sales management).
When I worked my a$$ off in a warehouse, as a bike messenger or a laborer, I worked even harder but made 10x less.
Being rewarded for grit, perseverance and hard work happened for me. It paid off in terms of self esteem, confidence and learning how to push myself or to grind things out. Working smarter paid off much more in terms of money.
In hindsight, I should have skipped college altogether and gone straight intio tech sales after high school or I should have graduated college and gone into investment banking. Either would have earned me enough to retire in my 30s instead of at 50.
But as Yogi Berra once said “hindsight is 50/50” 😀
Thanks fellow Steve, I definitely think you had the grit thing all over you. And that’s a good thing, I wish I was tougher than I am. I think the endurance running taught me a tiny amount of perseverance, but didn’t change me all that much.
I fell for the grit trap early in my teaching career. I was having interpersonal difficulties with my co-workers and struggling to balance motherhood (my daughter was a baby) and work. So I absolutely threw myself into work, like everyone said I should. It surprised me that the harder I worked, the less successful I was! After over a decade of ups and downs, I finally took two years off of teaching before landing my dream position. I now have learned to communicate with my team, to hire assistants who have strengths that complement my weak areas, and to prioritize self-care. As I have set boundaries on the hours that I work, I have definitely become more productive than I have ever been!
Hey Bethany, hats off to working moms. That’s got to be a tough work load balancing full time work with full time parenting. It sounds like you’ve managed to navigate to a great solution.